New UvA rector Verbeek: “I don't think boss is a good term; scientists govern themselves“

Welcome Peter-Paul to the UvA! We meet right away in an iconic and historic UvA building, the Maagdenhuis. What images and stories does this building evoke in you?

“This is of course a historic place where great and important discussions about democracy in science have taken place. Naturally, I immediately think of the two Maagdenhuis occupations in 1969 and 2015. In 1969, scientists and students protested against conservative professors, in 2015 against the power of managers. So the Maagdenhuis is a place with a special history and democratic tradition, but not a place where you sit among the students. That's why I'm glad that my workroom is on the Roeterseiland campus, among students and academics. That's the way it should be.“

You come from the convivial Twente and have a Brabant background. That is certainly charming, but at the UvA there is a culture of sharpened knives. How does a nice person deal with that?

“I haven't experienced any sharpened knives yet, on the contrary. I have so far encountered an open, welcoming and engaged culture. Perhaps the UvA is much nicer than the outside world thinks. What I have noticed is a culture of fierce debate, but that is different from sharpened knives. What I've also noticed is a direct, explicit way of dealing with each other, but I actually quite like that. “

In the Twente University newspaper UToday, you said the UvA had made "an offer you can't refuse.” Why couldn't you refuse?

“I wasn't looking for another job at all, but this came my way. From my scientific positions in Twente and at the KNAW, I naturally came to Amsterdam from time to time. My casual bubble of UvA people that I met this way already gave me a very positive feeling and that now appears to apply to the entire university. The UvA is a very beautiful, large and broad university with committed scientists. Plus, the UvA is a decentralized university, not governed top-down but bottom-up. That's where I fit in.“

In the same interview with UToday, you said that the rectorate profile drawn up by the UvA fits very well “with who I am and what I can do.” Who are you and what can you do?

“Above all, I am someone who has a passion for connection. Connection between science, society and people. Interdisciplinarity is a term that also fits me. In high school I couldn't choose between ancient languages and astronomy. I mean, I find all disciplines interesting and they are all interrelated. In recent years I have also become increasingly active administratively, but always focused on the connection between science and society, and that will continue to be the case.“

As rector, you are the "boss" of the scientists. What is so attractive about working in science?

“I immediately dislike the term ‘boss.’ That sounds rather top-down and that's not the way I am; scientists govern themselves. I want to create the conditions under which scientists can do their work as well as possible and students can get a good education. I think two hearts beat in every scientist’s chest: one focuses on acquiring knowledge and insight, the other on contributing to society. As rector, I want to ensure that those two hearts can continue to beat so that scientists and students can contribute to both science and society from those two hearts. “

Do you think you can continue to practice science yourself?

“That will still be possible on a very limited scale. I would like to keep four hours a week free for supervising PhD students and teaching. I am also finishing another book. I know that College President Geert ten Dam also lectures and does research. I think it is very good to run a university as a scientist. In Enschede, I gave an introductory workshop on science and integrity to all PhD students. Maybe I can start doing something like that here, too, but all on the fringes of my rectorship. That is paramount.“

You've published widely in your field, the philosophy of engineering. What does that field actually entail?

“Within my field it is about the analysis of the relationship between technology, people and society. The boundaries between them are increasingly blurred and technology increasingly determines how we understand the world and organize society. Technology is not neutral but loaded with morality and ethics. Our ethics are not only of our own making but are also shaped by technology. Prenatal diagnosis, for example, makes us responsible for the health status of the fetus, and artificial intelligence affects the administration of justice and the way we interact with language. To explore this intertwining of humans and technology, new frameworks and concepts must be developed. With such frameworks, you can then design and embed technology in a more responsible way. To this end, we have developed an approach that we call 'counseling ethics.' Ethics then is not a judging body that stands outside technology, but a critical companion from within.“

There are many complaints about publishing in general, particularly because of high pressure to publish. Is that complaint justified?

“I think there is a lot of complaining mainly about the lack of time for publishing. A kind of model of science has developed in which lots of publishing has become the norm, but we need to move to a richer and more differentiated model of science in which the quality of publications is more important than quantity. That's why the national Recognition and Appreciation program is so incredibly important, because it enables a diversity of career paths.“

How does that idea relate to the desire of many scientists to pursue careers internationally? After all, you can't do that without publishing a lot.

“That's not entirely true. Measuring numbers of publications internationally is also in flux. Even abroad, numbers are not simply the most important thing anymore. Look at how Robbert Dijkgraaf used to talk about a renowned American institute like Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study. There, scientists sometimes take up to three years to publish a scientific paper, but a very good one.“

You come from a more technical rather than a broad university. At the UvA, you will also have to manage alpha and gamma scientists. What will they notice about your technical background?

“Managing is a term I prefer not to use because I am not someone who manages scientists from the top down; that doesn't suit scientists. I am, however, someone who takes responsibility for all scientists. I have a feeling for all disciplines at the UvA. I am interested in everything and have an interdisciplinary attitude and background, which is also interdisciplinary. Technology is intertwined with culture, people and society and therefore also with alpha and gamma sciences.“

Technology also plays an important role in education, for example when it comes to online education. How do you look at that?

“Looking at digitization, we now know that total digitization through online education does not work. I myself have positive experiences with what we call flipping the classroom, in which students watch explanations and instruction in their own time and then during lectures they practice, discuss, and ask questions of the teacher and actively engage in deeper learning.“

You have gained a lot of experience in Twente with the anglicization of the curriculum, but there is also criticism of it: it can be exclusionary and it attracts (too) many foreign students. How should you move forward with anglicization?

“I really like the UvA as a bilingual, hybrid institution. I don't think the idea of going all the way back to Dutch as the language of science suits science. You can't keep up in science without English. But for now this is a personal reflection and not a Rector's position. For the latter, I first have to get to know the UvA better. Incidentally, I also think we need to talk further at the national level about joint ways of dealing with the internationalization of education.“

The internationalization of the university - and certainly the UvA - is closely related to this: there are too many international students, there might be no space or housing left for Dutch students. How should we proceed with internationalization?

“Again, I don't really want to say anything about this until I get started. But I do think that promoting active academic citizenship is an essential part of a university. Studying also has a formative effect and international students can contribute to that. Besides, the world just keeps globalizing, so you can't be left behind.”

The word "ethics" has been mentioned several times. Many students and employees find the UvA's collaboration with unsustainable or ethical companies such as Shell, Deutsche Bank or Huawei undesirable. How do you view this collaboration?

“I understand that people are concerned about such collaboration, on the other hand I think you can only change the world in collaboration with big parties. Concerns about sustainability must remain high on the agenda, especially at a progressive university like the UvA. One of my PhD students is actively involved in Extinction Rebellion and I have learned a lot from looking at climate change through her eyes and the eyes of her generation. It's precisely through collaboration that you can tackle the issue in concert. That also fits with my view of ethics. I think ethics should not only focus negatively on keeping out what we don't want but also positively on creating the conditions for what we do want.“

[Peter-Paul Verbeek]

Peter-Paul Camiel Christiaan Verbeek (Middelburg, 1970) studied philosophy of science, technology and society at the University of Twente (UT), where he also received his doctorate. Until his arrival at the UvA he was university professor of philosophy of man and technology at UT, where he was also scientific codirector of the DesignLab. Until becoming rector, he was honorary professor at Aalborg University in Aalborg, Denmark, and held a multitude of academic positions. Among other things, he was chairman of the Committee on Freedom of Science Practice of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences (KNAW) and vice chairman of the board of the Rathenau Institute. Until 2023, he will be chairman of UNESCO's World Commission for the Ethics of Science and Technology. Verbeek is a member of the KNAW, the Academy of Technology and Innovation and the Royal Holland Society of Sciences (KHMW). He is married and has four sons.